We’ve had few days without having to deal with roof issues.
It’s been bliss. The whole thing really has zapped the strength out of us and little else has gotten done. On the plus side, I have learned more than I ever wanted to know about shingling. On the minus side, I’ve learned more than I ever wanted about shingling. As an additional obsessive bonus, Dennis and I spend our time in the car examining other people’s roofs.
“Oh look, they have the metal valleys on their house.”
“Hey, look at the nail pops on their roof.”
“Gee, they really have inconsistent exposures there.”
If there are roses blooming or road construction or dinosaurs roaming the streets, we don’t notice. But we can tell you who’s roof has waves and dips and rotting fascia.
C’mon! Get to the point of the post, already!
To review:
The guy we contacted to give us a review came last week. He found all the stuff we already knew about. He walked some of the roof and reviewed our photos of other parts. He said he’d write us a letter ndicating what he’d found. We received it shortly thereafter. It stated:
Dennis XXXXXX
Our Street
Our Town, OH.Mr. XXXXXX,On 8-8-06 I inspected the roofing at your home. I have also reviewed the photographs that you have of the roof. Based upon this inspection and review I have noticed the following items.
*) The shingles installed on the home are Certainteed laminated shingles, Landmark Plus AR which are metric shingles.
Many of the shingles on your roof are not installed to Certainteed’s specifications. The first area that we will discuss is proper nailing of the shingles.
Certainteed laminated shingles have “nailing” lines printed on them. Each shingle has 3 lines, the outer 2 lines are 1 ” apart and mark the proper nailing position for roofs with a slope lower than 21/12. Since your roof has a slope in this category all of the nails are to be installed between these 2 lines. Since the only way to check proper nailing is lifting up the shingle tabs not all of them were checked. Some of the shingles that were checked did not have the nails properly installed inside of these lines. This could have many effects on the longevity of your roof, including reduced wind resistance, and voiding any manufacturer warranty. Proper nailing specifications can be found on page 139 of the Certainteed Shingle Applicators Manual (CSAM) which is also available online at Certainteed’s website.
The second area of concern is exposure of the shingles. For metric shingle the proper exposure is 5 5/8″ (CSAM page 141). Many courses of shingles on your roof are either much lower or greater than that number. Some courses measured were exposed from 3′” to 6 “. A guess as to the percentage of courses outside the allowable range may be 50-60% of the roof. The effects of improper exposure can be anything from reduced wind resistance and premature deterioration, to voiding the manufacturers warranty.
The third area of concern is the decking. The front porch roof seems to be the worst location for this, especially near the edge of the roof by the eaves. In these areas the roof decking bends in considerably when it is walked on, there is definitely a problem with either the decking or framing in these areas. The roof decking must be installed evenly and within proper specifications (CSAM page 34). Since there is no access to view the decking in these areas it is impossible to state factually what the problem is. The only way to determine this would be to remove the shingles and inspect the deck and roof framing. The effects of this could be premature shingle deterioration and voiding the manufacturers warranty.
The fourth area of concern is the way shingles have been installed around some roof penetrations. Especially the roof vents. Some of the shingles are not properly installed around these vents which could result in water penetrating into the home.
The fifth area of concern are damaged shingles. When roofing is installed it is common for shingles to be damaged, either by walking on them when they are hot, dropping or cutting them etc… There are a few areas on your roof where shingles have been damaged by such things that need to be replaced. There are also some exposed nails and holes that need to be sealed.
In conclusion the roof on your home was not installed to the specifications that Certainteed has set forth for this product. While I cannot speak for Certainteed directly I can say with almost absolute certainty that they will not warrant the shingles on your home due to improper installation. I am basing this conclusion on previous experiences with similar situations. The problems listed above are not isolated to specific areas but are located on almost all sides and areas of the roof. Some shingles may be nailed properly but the exposure is not correct or vice versa.
Based upon these findings it is my opinion that they only way to have a full manufacturer warranty on the roof would be to completely replace the shingles on your home. The number and size of areas installed incorrectly is a very large percentage of the total roof area and it would be more expensive to try and patch these areas than to replace them. This is especially true for the incorrect exposures. Certainteed does allow a margin of plus or minus 1/8″ for exposures. However due to the large variance in the exposures on your roof it would be almost impossible to make up the difference without removing the majority of the shingles. Once shingles are nailed down it is very time consuming to remove them without damaging them is one way or another. All of these items together has led me to the conclusion that replacing the entire roof is the only way to make sure it is installed within manufacturer specifications.
Please contact me if you have any questions or need any additional information.
Respectfully,
Jxxxxxxx XXXXXX
Manager/Project Estimated Certified Certainteed MSAW
So there you go! Except…..
Because he did not walk the entire roof (but then he didn’t charge us anything either), we decided to get a housing inspector to look at it as well. Because we’re nice (within reason), we invited the owner of the construction company (we’ll call him R.) to join us on this little adventure. R. didn’t seem too excited about it, but accepted. We asked him to bring the Certainteed inspector as well, and suddenly, he didn’t think that was a good idea. A 180 degree change from the week before. Hmmmm…..
R. got to the house early, and the inspector called to tell us he was running late.
As R. and Dennis chatted about our unrealistic expectations of the roof, he waved a fax from Certainteed explaining that the exposure of the shingles should be 5 5/8″. Dennis assured him that we knew that. R. went on to explain that the white line we had shown him on the shingle was a chalk line used for positioning and would wash away in time.
He said it had nothing whatever to do with nailing. At least that’s what it was for when he was laying shingle. Okay, but wasn’t that, you know a couple of decades ago? So Dennis (ever the diplomatic one) said:
“Well, I have some shingles in the barn, let’s go take a look.”
Off they went to the barn where Dennis took two shingles, laid them out and took R.’s tape measure. Five and five eights inches put the top shingle right on the shadow line of the bottom shingle. No lines – chalk or otherwise – could be seen.
Dennis told me later that it was at that moment he felt we had won the battle.
The inspector arrived. R. said “Hey, nice to see you again! We met at the so and so house during that such and such thing” I cringed. They were friends or at least knew each other. They had done some sort of male bonding thing and would have each other’s back. We were doomed! Then, a noticed. The inspector had that scrunchy face and cloudy look that happens when someone recollects something you don’t remember. He didn’t know R. He didn’t remember meeting him. When he finally summoned the event, he said “Oh yeah. The such and such house. That was six weeks ago. Sorry. I do several inspections a day.” Hooray for our side! Then the inspector climbed up on the front porch roof. This was a critical area and I held my breath. When I say his eyes bug out (literally!) as he hit the soft spot I saw a little ray of sunshine. Maybe we would prevail. He walked to roof and called down his findings to us. R. was scribbling and justifying…
We all moved to the main event…the upper roof. We gained access via the airing deck off the bathroom on the second floor. Dennis (who hereafter will be known as “Dennis the Brave”, followed the inspector up the ladder and onto the roof. Me? I said on the airing deck. R.?
Surprisingly, the best he did during the entire inspection was four rungs up on the ladder. He never set foot on the roof. I considered climbing up on the roof just to make him feel like a sissy, but decided a broken neck would do me no good.
We have an oak commode in the bathroom. R. had placed his tablet, portfolio and phone on the commode as we went out on the deck. When the inspector would call down a problem he had observed, R. would open the airing deck door, go into the bathroom, retrieve the tablet, come out on the deck, write down the task, go back in, deposit the tablet, and come back out. After doing so about six times, he sighed, resigned to his fate, and kept the pad of paper out on the deck with him. It proved to be an efficient decision.
At some point, the decision was made to tear off the east and west sides totally and redo them. While I said a silent prayer of thanks, I was disappointed because the extent to which the sides were botched was never revealed to R. I intend to send to him all the photos we have, just so he knows his crew is putting his company, his reputation, and people’s homes in jeopardy.
After the inspection, all four of us sat around the dining room table.
We went over everything. I asked the inspector (loud enough for everyone to hear, if he could do a reinspection. So…there….
The inspector did a good job. The only area Dennis and I were disappointed about was the cupping along the edge of the house & porch. He assured us it would not present a problem, but did tell R. that there should have been a double course of shingles at the started course and that the nailing of that course could have been lower to ensure it really bites into the fascia and eliminates some of the “give”.
The inspector left, and then it was three. The first thing R. did? He returned our check! We didn’t even have to pry it out of his hand. He also offered to pay for the inspection. While he really should have, I told him we would split the cost (Dennis nearly throttled me). Should things have to go further (i.e. court), I didn’t want R. to say he paid for the inspection as if it was his idea. We talked terms. We talked quality. We talked what a jerk he’d been to us. Okay, that last one was played out in my mind, but it was satisfying.
We wrote him another check for a more reasonable amount, reserving a healthy portion of the balance to insure proper installation and parted on friendly terms. The thing we did not get that I wanted: an apology. But I suppose I will settle for a properly installed roof.
Our next task: the inspector recommended that we get the chimney swept and tuckpointed prior to the reshingling. The sweep is due next week and the tuckpointed within a couple of days of that. Then, we shingle.
Our next installation: contacting the totally useless region rep for Certainteed. Oh, and I’ll probably remember some other stuff about the inspection.
Front Porch -
Remove shingles from all 3 eave lines up to 3′
Replace or repair roof deck to eliminate soft spots
Relay shingles, metal edge, felt, etc.
Main roof -
strip east & west slopes & reroof including felt and metal
Replace hip cap on all 4 hips – strike lines and run hip cap straight.
Cut all exposed top portions of other hip cap on other hips.
Repair two cracked/spit shingles near upper rear roof vent
Add 3 roof vents to rear dormer
Add 3 roof vents to front dormer
Add at least 2, maybe 3 roof vents at top peak (one each side)
Add gutter brackets on dormer gutters where they meet main roof
Cut points in all valleys
Seal exposed nail heads
Rear dormer: seal dormer shingles
V-cut dormer on hip
Replace ripped last shingle on rear dormer
Last shingle on rear dormer
Barn Roof -
Replace brown metal on alley side at upper pitch change to be all
same color of brown and eliminate buckes
Replace split ridge cap on hay mow ridge at main roof
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Interesting. Nice site BTW. I’ll read more later.
It’s a good that “R” refunded your money. He is doing the right thing. My guess is that he has a sub-par crew here. I hope he has options. But you can’t hire people off the street, do sloppy work and hope to B.S. your way out of it.
Hopefully he has learned and grown from this experience. Especially if he wants to stay in the roofing biz.
Way to go! You stuck to your guns and held the owners feet to the fire.
We did. Of course, we obsessed about it for weeks. We made up little scenarios and played them out at home. What if he says this? What if he says that? What if they try to separate us and break us down individually? Which of the dogs has the deadliest bite? It was endless…And still, we have the re-roof extravaganze to live through.
Cross your fingers!